Power tools

[wudenbote]

The Keeper of Finances (read wife) has ok'd the budget for some power tools. I will be building a 20' power dory. The only power tool I currently own is a 10" Milwaukee compound miter saw. The boat will be marine ply over sawn frames. I'm interested in your opinions of tools needed. Preferably listing them in order of importance. (usefulness) Band saw, bench sander, joiner/planer, table saw, etc. And no, you can't marry her, she's mine! :-) Thanks much!

[Manie B]

My 2 cents

Jig saw
Cicular saw
Planer
Drill variable speed 220/110 Volt
Drill rechargeable used as screwdriver
2 or 3 different types of orbital sanders
belt sander
good solid table
big vice
plenty clamps = 40 or more

after this your wife will also hate boats he he he:D :D :D
and when you are out there and it starts to rain = bye bye wifey:D :D :D :D

[Lt. Holden]

Wudenbote,

Manie B. has certainly covered the basics.

What is your budget? My father and I built many dories of similiar size back in the seventies using just hand tools and jig saw, Skilsaw, electric drill and reciprocating sander.

Today you have an almost infinite variety of makes and models available. If you perhaps post the study plans we could narrow it down a bit.

Much of what you need is determined by the sources and types of materials you intend to use and whether you will be glassing or simply painting the boat.

If you intend to work from full size patterns then a high-quality jigsaw with variable speeds/orbit and bladeguide could substitute for the bandsaw. If you are buying finished lumber you probably don't need a planer, although a hand held power plane is very useful.

Since you will be breaking down a significant amount of sheet goods, an efficient, one-man system for laying out and cutting ply will be essential.

So if you can fill in some more details, myself and others can surely make some informed suggestions.

Good Luck and don't forget to post PICS!

John

[Butch .H]

All the above including the most important tool the CAMERA so you can post lots of pics:)

[the1much]

dust masks,,,,are them power?,,
shop vac
hammer?? hehe ;)
but definitely a shop vac!!

[BHOFM]

Also important is the quality of what you buy! With the
economy being down, pawn shops are a good place to
start looking!!

A good table saw! Not a big commercial unit, just a nice
DIY model! The blade is as important as the saw! Good ones
are the rule!

Router, the router is cheap, the bits will kill you! I bought
mine at Habor Freight for little or nothing and have had very
good luck with them!

Planer, hand and table top, again the blades are very
important!

The miter saw is nice! A good hand saw! I have this little
Stanley and I could not work without it!

http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=productDetail&productId=48770-355-20-221&lpage=none

A hand held power saw is OK, but I don't use it that often,
I have a Skill cordless that is handy! They lack accuracy and
are often used for cutting off a piece of stock to make it
a manageable size and prone to waste!

A cordless drill in nice, but battery's can run into money as
they get older, it is often cheaper to buy a new unit than
a replacement battery! I have a Skill and bought a new
one on sale for much less than a battery cost!

A good corded drill is a must, along with bits for wood,
Brad point!

A palm sander is nice, a good one, with gear drive, not
a vibrating type, a beltsander is a must have!

This is the palm sander I have, if you can swing the price,
they are the best of the best, mine is over twenty years
old and still going strong after several dozen boats and
several hundred clocks and lots of furniture!

It uses 6" paper, the automotive type, much better and
cheaper than the 5" DIY paper! Again, good paper is
often cheaper than bargain stuff in the long run!

http://www.cpomakita.com/sanders_and_polishers/random_orbit_sanders/bo6030.html

Drill press, bandsaw, scowlsaw, all nice, but you can build
boats without them!

Because I have the needed power tools, I can buy lesser
quality lumber and cut the sizes I need from larger stock,
with a little planning there is little waste and a large savings!

Material planning is a big part of building any project at
a reasonable price!

And being Scottish, I am just CHEAP!
Are you going to finish that beer?

[the1much]

do it the "hillbilly" way,,,tape measure,hand saw,pencil,and a square,,,,and for the "power" in the tools,,,buy a keg of beer and "invite" friends over fer some free beer,,,hehe :D
my list seems way more "manageable" hehe ;)

[BHOFM]

Just say "when"!:D :D :D :D :D :D :D

[PAR]

A good jigsaw along with the miter saw and a drill can build a dory. All the rest is just fancy stuff to line the walls of your garage. Except for the miter saw, you really don't need any stationary tools, such as a table saw, band saw, joiner, etc. These tools are handy if you plan to produce several boats, but not just one, especially a dory.

In fact, you could hack one together with a hand saw and a Yankee screw driver, but this is more exercise then most are willing to invest.

Tools aren't the thing you need, so much as drive, ambition and the willingness to complete the project, which can (and will) get you so pissed off at yourself, that you might just quit. Working through the problems (there's always problems) and coming up with clever solutions, is the hallmark of boatbuilding, not how fancy your tool collection is.

[BHOFM]

A good jigsaw along with the miter saw and a drill can build a dory. All the rest is just fancy stuff to line the walls of your garage. Except for the miter saw, you really don't need any stationary tools, such as a table saw, band saw, joiner, etc. These tools are handy if you plan to produce several boats, but not just one, especially a dory.

In fact, you could hack one together with a hand saw and a Yankee screw driver, but this is more exercise then most are willing to invest.

Tools aren't the thing you need, so much as drive, ambition and the willingness to complete the project, which can (and will) get you so pissed off at yourself, that you might just quit. Working through the problems (there's always problems) and coming up with clever solutions, is the hallmark of boatbuilding, not how fancy your tool collection is.

Well said!

[safewalrus]

All good stuff, especially the little homily form PAR (as usual - sucint and to the point - are you ever wrong PAR, you frighten me! a Marine Architect who not only knows what he's doing but has done it and talks to us peasants!)

But you are all forgetting the most important power tool of them all!

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a good radio - you're going to spend hours on the job, you need some thing to make the job 'swing', without it you're going to go mad!!

[ancient kayaker]

I recommend a panel saw, great for accurately cutting marine ply, light and precise. Ideally you want to be able to see the cutting edge of the blade. Cover your table with a 1 inch thick block of insulating foam; just lay the ply on top and set the saw to just penetrate the ply.

Also agree with Par on hand tools instead of stationary tools, especially if your workshop is a bit on the small side. You need twice as much space when you move the workpiece through the tool as when you move the tool along the workpiece ...

A cordless phone will ensure you don't end up wondering who's calling ...

About routers: I have 2, a big high-power heavy brute I don't use much except on a table, not often at that, and a dinky one I can use in one hand that does just about everything I need.

Drills: I find a drill press very useful, not so much for boat bits as for making temporary jigs for making tools do more jobs better.

About planers: a portable power one is good but a couple of hand planes (one low angle block, one smoothing or similar) with really sharp blades would be safer. Invest in a good stone (Japanese water). If you buy wood in the rough then a stationary plane is a boon, maybe a jointer too.

Cost: BHOFM is right about cost of blades and router bits; you'll find the same after you collect a sufficient supply of drill bits too, don't forget Forstner bits, one or two ship augers and decent quality (bimetal) hole saws. I had a workshop fire (old wiring) last year and can vouch for the fact that it's the small stuff that uses up the cash fastest, especially hand tools. I find decent power tools are quite cheap these days, and the Chinese ones are often adequate unless you decide to become a framer - the quality stuff will outlast them ten times. When it comes to hand tools I spare no expense however; a lot of the good stuff seems to come from Japan.

[rwatson]

My aged grandfather used to say ..

"When arr were a bouy we used ta knock a 16ft skiff together before breakfast using nowt but sharpened copper nail and two bladed mattock from the garden.

Arl ya fancy power tools do nuttin but tear the fingers offen a good boatbuilder"

He was as mad as a hatter.

You will find a bandsaw a great asset, even if you own a good jigsaw. You can produce much more accurate cuts by manipulating the ply around the blade rather than 'driving' a jigsaw over the plywood. And it sounds like you will have quite a few accurate panels to cut out.

[Lt. Holden]

The mention of a cutting table was apt. You can make a lwt. skeleton type out of 2x3's biscuited together or screwed (keep the screws well below the top!) and use folding table legs. The foam sheet mentioned works well and helps prevent tearout on the bottom side.

What is essential is a decent Circular Saw with a couple of good edge guides; one for ripping and a shorter one for X-cuts. You can make them or buy them. If you are using expensive ply I would make a zero-cleqrance sub-base for the saw to minimize tear-out.

A good shop-vac to extract the dust will make the project much healthier and enjoyable for you as well as save a lot of cleanup time.

[Kaptin-Jer]

Two things I couldn't live with out:
My Festool 6" sander and my fathers' Yankee ratchet screwdriver.
You will be sanding everything forever. It's the most expensive tool I have, but worth every penny. The antique driver is important because you will twist the heads off of stainless or brass screws with an electric driver, but not with the Yankee, and it is just as fast and easy. Sometimes the old tools are better than the new..

[BHOFM]

Cordless!

All my Great Grandfathers drill were cordless, I still have
them and use them often! I have never had one of them
hangup!

[wudenbote]

Kaptin-Jer: What is your sander? Orbital, pad, belt etc.? I have seen the Festool name but don't know anything about them. I like quality tools! The last tool I bought was my Milwaukee compound miter about eight years ago. It was made in USA and has proven itself time and again. Thanks to you and others like you for your valuable insight!

[PAR]

Festool makes some of the finest tools in the world, but God they think a lot of their products. They have this cool plunge circular saw, but at $1,200 bucks, it better select and stack the lumber it's cutting too.

One tool they do have, which is hands down the only one I've found that actually works, is their detail sander. Every other I've used, you could stall the motor by leaning on the tool aggressively, leaving a useless vibrating sissy. Not the Festool detail sander. I've actually used the weight of my body against one, without it bitching a lick, still cutting and never stalling. This is one of their inexpensive tools, for around $400. Their shop vacuum is also a great product, but again the price suggests the third Reich is attempting a pay back.

Sanders are what most folks buy, until they learn how to finish wooden surfaces. With other materials, you don't have much choice, you have to use power tools to force the stuff to yield to your will, but wood can be "talked" into position with less convincing.

The typical list is a DA (duel action, orbital), which does duty as a rough to medium surfacing work, detail and finish sanders (jitter bugs, etc.) for the fine work, belt sanders of various shapes for rough work. I have several sanders, but for production type work I usually pull out the air tools (in line sander - 2 sizes, jitter bugs, drum, grinder, belt and a couple of DA's)

When it comes time to really finish wood, there is no substitute for hand work and skill. Nothing looks as good as a hand rubbed piano and no power sander will produce this finish, though Festool may soon market one for $2,400 bucks that comes close. Learning how to plane and scrape a surface smooth, produces such better results that you'll use your power tools to rough things in, then put them down for the "real finish work".

I'm sure a machine could satisfy your lover as well, if not more then you, but some things should be left to your own hands, as they are much more sensitive to the surface requirements then a machine.

[ancient kayaker]

The mention of a cutting table was apt. You can make a lwt. skeleton type out of 2x3's biscuited together or screwed (keep the screws well below the top!) and use folding table legs. The foam sheet mentioned works well and helps prevent tearout on the bottom side..

You just described my cutting table perfectly! Mine knocks down for the off season.

The zero clearance bases are a great idea: I have them on a lot of my tools. Even my (handheld) power planer has a reduced clearance wood base - the aluminum bases have far too much clearance behind the cutters - I use mine for cutting the rolling bevels for glued planks, the base is extended both sides to rest on the earlier planks.

Speaking of dust, I tape a 20 in square furnace filter on a 20 inch box fan which is attached to the ceiling; powered off the light switch; it is great for clearing the air while sanding.

[Lt. Holden]

I own numerous Festool Power Tools and while they are pricey they are the best that I have ever used. What you need to keep in mind in considering them is that they for the most part are designed as a system.

The catalog is downloadable (in PDF format) here:
http://www.festoolusa.com/Web_files/Festool-2008-Catalog.pdf

What they do offer is superb ergonomics, precision and results. Their dust extractors work in conjunction with all of their tools (except the drills) and make an amzing difference. When coupled with their RO150EQ (dual mode Random Orbit/Rotary) sander they greatly reduce swirling, extend abrasive life and collect nearly all the dust.

if you would like to learn more visit the Festool Owners Group. You can search on any relavent topic.

[the1much]

do they last if you refuse to oil em?

[TeddyDiver]

My "top" powertools: Cordless driver/drill Festool :) (not any better than X), Makita band sander :D (not for rookies) and table circ saw :confused: (Bosh, by the way it sucks) and Makita planner:D

[Kaptin-Jer]

Kaptin-Jer: What is your sander? Orbital, pad, belt etc.? I have seen the Festool name but don't know anything about them. I like quality tools! The last tool I bought was my Milwaukee compound miter about eight years ago. It was made in USA and has proven itself time and again. Thanks to you and others like you for your valuable insight!

I see I logged on too late, and your question has been answered. Par is right I still go to bed at night dreaming of a stack of Festool containers. Then I wake up in a cold sweat. I will be buying the Festool vacuum. (some day). It is great. I burned out one Home Depot type that I had rigged to the sander, but the Festool is quiet, turns on and off with the sander and uses a bag. A few of the pros around the marina use them all the time, but I can't get a tax write off when I buy mine.:mad:

[the1much]

i can :D ,,, buy it for me and i'll write it off this year :)

P.S. (this is off topic) how'd ya weather the storm Kapt.?

[Kaptin-Jer]

Gee it's great to have friends like you. At least you could have offered to buy it for me!!
Storm caused me no problems. The Benny looks like Spiderman got drunk, but I'll leave the web on until after Hurricane season. My son (Who is in that place you were going to visit) was off work for 3 days because of flooding. Heat index is well over 120. Bolted the tabernacle on yesterday, but just too hot and humid to go out there today.
Sorry guys didn't mean to high-jack, (I'm done now---)

[northerncat]

these 2 links may help you out as these are the tools used to build 2 ply catamarans

sean
http://www.puremajek.com/pure_majek_document_008.htm

http://easycat.50webs.com/easy_cruising_general_024.htm

[TeddyDiver]

I will be buying the Festool vacuum. (some day). It is great.
Don't wanna spoil your dreams but, eventually after sometime they are a real PITA.. We have them at work and trust me I know...
HILTI is way to go with portable vacuums... However much better with a stationary system.. my dream.. if I had a stationary boatshop.. instead of a tent..

[Kaptin-Jer]

I don't think Hilti sells their Vacuums in the U.S. The Hilti US web site will only give a quote if you send an email address. I'm sure it's a special order. In the states Hilti is best known for their power fasteners (shot pins).

[alan white]

Favorite power tools? I wish we could talk about something nicer, like hand tools.
I imagine heaven as a place where you don't need power tools. People who get a hold of Grandpa's hand tools make them dull or out of kilter quickly, so their only experience of them is that they are some sort of torture devices.
It's all about time. With a few exceptions (like thicknessing or ripping wood or rapid drilling through hard materials), hand tools (adzes, saws, planes, scrapers, draw knives, spokeshaves, etc.) are fast and pleasant to use.
They are sometimes faster but usually slower, and they always sound better.
I use power tools all the time. They spit crap in your face, tear at your ears, and fill your lungs with dust.
When there's no rush, or when it HAS to be right (like using spokeshave, rasp and scraper on a hand-carved tiller with an S-curve in the grain itself instead of laminations clamped to a form), and when it's your own boat, you have a right to enjoy your work for once.
At the end of the sailing season, when I've had enough good sailing adventures, I begin to look forward to implementing all the ideas I had all Summer to modify and improve my boat---- and even the process of repainting and varnishing is enjoyable if it's not rushed.
I guess the highest honor I could bestow upon any of my power tools wouldn't be "best", but most expeditious. An expeditious means to an end.
My ears are ringing right now.
I do like my new Milwaukee jig saw however. I highly recommend it, and it's not too loud or dusty...

Alan

[BHOFM]

Allen;

We are cut from the same cloth.

Today I used my Great Grandfathers plane to fair the taper
on the keel plank, and when I fit the chines to the stem I
used his dividers to mark them for cutting. Both of these are
well over 100 years old. When I do need a power saw, I use
my Grand Dads, 1958 Craftsman, I have the case, instruction
manual, the original blade and the receipt from Sears! Also
the three prong adapter that came with it!

These are not tools, they are treasures far beyond what
money can buy!

It makes the finished product something from the past!

Sorry to get off topic!:p :p :p

[alan white]

Allen;

We are cut from the same cloth.

Today I used my Great Grandfathers plane to fair the taper
on the keel plank, and when I fit the chines to the stem I
used his dividers to mark them for cutting. Both of these are
well over 100 years old. When I do need a power saw, I use
my Grand Dads, 1958 Craftsman, I have the case, instruction
manual, the original blade and the receipt from Sears! Also
the three prong adapter that came with it!

These are not tools, they are treasures far beyond what
money can buy!

It makes the finished product something from the past!

Sorry to get off topic!:p :p :p

Oh boy... I owned that same saw! But it was 1969, so I guess they seldom changed designs back then like they do today!
My favorite skilsaw is a mid-seventies Skilsaw--- all aluminum, and weighs a ton. Cost the same then as they do now! About $125.

[BHOFM]

I also have Grand Dads first power drill, a Sunbeam Drillmaster!

I don't use it, it is one speed, Fast! But it has a nice chuck,
instead of a key, it uses an allen wrench! I have the manual
but it is not dated, some where in the mid 40's!

My Sis sews with Grand Mothers 1950 singer!

Pack-rat-ism runs in my family! I have two tickets to the
opening day at the San Diego Zoo? I have a 1956 phone
in my study, remember the thing you put your finger in
and went around in a circle?

[the1much]

my great grampa was a carpenter,, i used to have his hand built wooden tool box FULL of his handtools. evidently, my "family" thought they were useless,, because i went on vaca and came back to the whole box gone. @ssholes.

[alan white]

my great grampa was a carpenter,, i used to have his hand built wooden tool box FULL of his handtools. evidently, my "family" thought they were useless,, because i went on vaca and came back to the whole box gone. @ssholes.

Well, if you hadn't gone around CONSTANTLY berating wood as a child, you might have softened thrit cruel hearts and gotten the tools.
There's still time, you know. Wouldn't it be nice to get a brand spanking new chisel set or a handsaw for Christmas this year?
Let's see if you can be a big wood booster from now on!

Alan

[the1much]

if you'd show me how to "add" after i cut too short,, as easily as i "add" to my mistakes with glass,, then we might be able to talk "wood",,hehe ;)
isnt it awful to LOVE wooden boats but refuse to work on em :(
damned Yankee's hehe ;)

[Kaptin-Jer]

if you'd show me how to "add" after i cut too short,, as easily as i "add" to my mistakes with glass,, then we might be able to talk "wood",,hehe ;)
isnt it awful to LOVE wooden boats but refuse to work on em :(
damned Yankee's hehe ;)

Just add a piece with the same epoxy --Your just a scardycat.
Jim, I built 3 wooden boats. It is sooo much more rewarding than the 'glass work we have been doing. It isn't more difficult, it is just a different set of skills. You learned the 'glass you can learn the wood. Building a pretty 16' lapstrake row boat is hands down more rewarding than building a 25' 'glass boat. I am not talking practicality. I'm talking self fulfillment. (If I wanted self fulfillment I wouldn't be rebuilding a big old fiberglass sail boat, I would be building ceder strip canoes) I done did my self fulfillment things now I need a boat that I can use when I retire.

[safewalrus]

My Sis sews with Grand Mothers 1950 singer!



Your sister is one lucky lady BH, they made some lovely machines in those days, simple, yes; but they'd go on for ever and rarely need fixing and when they did.....................easy

(come to think of it your pretty lucky yourself with some of that stuff -or am I biased?)