The Raid Boat

[duluthboats]

Lately I have noticed a growing interest in small open sailing/rowing boats of the type that are capable of participating in a Raid. It may be that it is just my increased interest in this type because of my new location that has made me noticed them. I have reduced my fleet to two solo canoes and have decided that my next boat will allow me to explore this fantastic Pacific Northwest coastline. The Raid boat thread will be a collaborative effort to design a boat but more importantly to understand all the details involved in such a design. I’m starting with only a few conditions, safe, affordable, 1-2 crew, Raid capable. The rest at this point is wide open and will be like Option One, with polls as we go along. I know this type of collaboration rarely yields a conclusive result but the process leads to and increased understanding. My free time is limited so I will only be a contributor not a moderator, I hope it will take off on it’s own.

Gary :D

[duluthboats]

For those not familiar with Raids here is a link to a Raid that is organized by a forum member. http://www.shipyardraid.ca/ Most entrants use the boat they have if it fits the requirements; they seem to be good under sail or driven by oars. A few boats have been designed and built with a specific Raid in mind. Conditions in the area of the Raid may dictate design choices, but I think a design that finds a balance between sail and oar will be an able participant and bring much enjoyment. These boats are the boats of our past they are from a time when people made a living on their boat.

Gary :D

[Willallison]

Yippee - another project - I love these :D (though I have no real time to contribute much :( )
1st - couple of questions

Are there restrictions on the building materials and type of construction? Though I guess you'd prefer timber regardless...

Is there a 'style' requirement - must the boats be traditional in appearance?

Do you have to sail and row without modification - so for instance, could you have a ballasted centreboard that could be removed from the boat during rowing legs?

I'm thinking cold-molded, lightweight with an unstayed mast & removable rig. And as eluded to above, a removable centreboard.
Hell - lets throw in some sliding seats for rowing that can be pivoted out to the sides for trapeze-like bailing out!

Am I missing the spirit.....?

[waikikin]

I missed the spirit entirely- head ran away with thoughts of a jet sprint style Mad Max creation, then I looked at Garys link- looks like a pretty nice way to spend some time.Regards from Jeff.

[duluthboats]

For the Shipyard School Raid, boats will be traditional sail-and-rowing craft between 4.5 m or 15' and 7.9 m or 26' LOA; however, the race committee has the final decision on eligibility. That leaves a lot of room but would exclude the average roto-molded tri. ;) The word traditional is not well definded. I have looked at other Raid sites and some are very open with classes and others are restricted. For the purpose of this thread lets go with the above discription with the added restriction of no multihulls and see where that leads us.

Gary :D

[SailDesign]

Looks like fun, Gary - thanks.
Steve

[duluthboats]

We have a rough idea of this boats intended use. So would the next step be a good estimate of the load it will carry?
2 big crew members at 220lbs/100kg each.
Personal gear=?
Water and food for 3 days=?
Safety equipment=?
Boat tack=?
Other=?
Total=?
Are there charts that will give us a starting point for these unknown weights?

Gary

[duluthboats]

Experience with canoe tripping tells me to allow 70lbs/32kg per person for gear, clothes, tent, rain fly, and misc. Add about 5lbs/2.3kg for food and a gallon of water per day per person plus some extra.
Gear = 140lbs/64kg
Food = 30lbs/13.6kg
Water = 9gal/34l = 75lbs/34kg
Total =275lbs/125kg
There is the sail rig, oars, and safety gear, wow; the weight is getting up there. Are my numbers in the ball park so far?

Gary :D

[Willallison]

hmmm - guess the ballasted degerboard and sliding trapeze seats are are out then..:(
My1st thought was that you could go for a variation on the recreational rowing shell that I was keen to build a while back

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=2146&highlight=recreational+shell

But this was a row-boat only. Having to be aable to sail it as well adds a fair bit of complexity in that unless you have some form of ballast, then the only simple way of incorporating some form stability is by increasing the beam: which of course is the enemy of any rowing boat.
So what we (well...you;) ) really need is a boat with a fairly narrow waterline when upright, but with a rapidly increasing beam as the boat heels. This will make it a bit tippy mind you....

as far as your gear goes - is a gallon of water per day sufficient for two people who are going to be working pretty hard?
I would have thought you'd get away with rather less for the personal gear though. I wouldn't lug 64kg of gear out to the boat each time I take a family of four away for a week, let alone 2 people who are out to rough it...

[duluthboats]

Will, I want to thank you for chiming into what appears to be not such a hot thread. ;0
I have allowed 1 gal per day per person plus 50% for 3 days, this should be sufficient for weekending along the coast. The weight of gear may sound heavy to you so think of it this way. You are island hoping for three days in an open small boat with another person. You have to bring something to sleep in, to cook on, to cook with, clothes for good and foul weather. I think you would be surprised at the total when you start to add every little thing up.
I know I’m being a bit clumsy about this but I hope this is the way to start, define the intended use and the load and go from there.

Gary :D

[Willallison]

Righto - I think I need a brief lesson on what goes on with these Raid thingy's. My (brief) look at the link to Tad's stuff gave the impression of a competition over a number days, with both rowing and sailing involved.
Are there separate events each day?
Is the rowing & sailing separated into individual competitions?
Or do you simply have to make your way from point A to point B over X days using whichever means of propulsion you deem the quickest?
Do you sleep on board? (can you sleep on board?)
Do you eat on board?

As for chiming in with my 2 cents worth - I love these collaborative things. History may suggest they they won't always result in the construction of a boat, but they're usually good fun - and I always learn something...:D

[Raggi_Thor]

I have read about raids in Finland, Sweden and Scotland (Caledonia Canal).
It seems like they stop every night and sleep in tents on land.
Water can be filled every morning, so you can probably carry only what you drink during the day.

One friend here in Norway is probably making the common mistake of designing a new boat for maximum speed while I think good overall performance in light winds and under oars is more important.

[SeaSpark]

Link to a modern raid boat:

http://www.nauticaltrek.com/petite_elisa.htm

It performed very well in the Blekinge Archipelago Raid, text is in French but pictures speak for themselves. Don't like the looks as much as the classic raid boats but something like this should be easy to build light.

[Raggi_Thor]

Yes, something like that with a round bottom!
Plywood topsides with strip planked bottom :-)
Maybe the small cabin is too much?
Why not just a boom tent?

[Raggi_Thor]

Babelfish translation of the french page:
http://world.altavista.com/babelfish/trurl_pagecontent?lp=fr_en&url=http://www.nauticaltrek.com/petite_elisa.htm

[Raggi_Thor]

My favourite hull form or building method at the moment:

[SeaSpark]

Agree on cabin, it does not add anything to the looks or useabilty, a boom tent is fine.

A cabin does keep the cockpit dry and provides some shelter when going to windward for crew. A small roof like on old dragons could help.

[SeaSpark]

Some nice video footage of raid boats in 25-30 knots wind conditions.
Worth watching:

http://wbeditor.typepad.com/rudderpost/sweden/index.html

[duluthboats]

Ragnar that is a nice looking hull. I have considered using a combination plywood panel and strip planking. But in my case the bottom would be plywood and the topsides would be stripped instead of cold molding.

SeaSpark, what is there to say, it will be a long while before I have the skill to attempt what is shown in the video. :eek: I have almost no sailing experience, but I plan to change that. Raiding may be in the distant future but one must have goals.

Gary :D

[Raggi_Thor]

Gary, don't you think a round bottom will row better?
I think minimum wetted surface is important for rowing and light wind sailing.

[SeaSpark]

I would prefer a multi chine plywood design. Three 3 chines per side?

A ply design with no glass sheeting is much easier to build for a not so experienced builder. I am afraid a novice builder will not be able to control weight in a strip plank building metheod.

[duluthboats]

Ragnar, it may be that both of these types of boats would individually benefit from a round bottom. The question is can the two be combined while maintaining stability and still have a nice round bottom?

SeaSpark, strip planking is very easy for a novice to learn. It may be more labor intensive but it allows you limitless shapes.

Gary

[Raggi_Thor]

Strip planking is a bit heavier than Okume plywood.
We used 8mm strips in the bottom + glass on both sides.
This made a total weight of approx 5kg/m2.
6mm Okume plywood is approx 3kg/m2.
I thought the extra strength in the bottom was good for beaching and trailering.

[Hans Friedel]

I just designed this boat for a guy who wanted a good rowing boat. You could add some small sails but I think you can row faster in most condition. Compared to sailing. If you race in a Raid like competition. Perticular if you have a sliding seat.

http://www.boatdesign.net/gallery/data/500/RB055.jpg

Hans

[safewalrus]

Ahr, the light dawns, your trying to make like oldtime pirates and swashbucklers and all that stuff without the fancy dress, no bad idea, in fact it sounds like fun! Due to lack of pre knowledge I won't be adding anything to this forum but by heck duluth buddy you got my immagination all fired up! will be reading a lot!!

[Sean Herron]

Hello...

I respect the 'Raider' concept and the people who created the 'movement'...

I am of Danish and German blood - and as such I remain stubbornly depressed and very angry about being so...:)

I have been mucking about with something that could find it's way into this bit...

See below...

Cheers everyone...

SH.

[duluthboats]

Sean, to row well I think you will need less beam. I also think it would be good if all the sail rigging could be stowed below the shear while being rowed to reduce wind resistance, so short sticks would be nice.

Gary

[SailDesign]

There is an interesting article about the Everglades Challenge 2006 in the latest Small Craft Advisor. This is a Raid-style competition, and an interesting read. Plan on finding a copy of SCA soon. www.smallcraftadvisor.com
Steve "no connection"

[Tad]

Every Raid is different; the ideal boat will depend on the venue. Most that I have seen pictures of give the impression that there is lots of wind during their event and thus little rowing. Here in the PNW there is little wind in early September and thus during the Shipyard Raid the emphasis is on rowing or rowing/sailing (both at once). The winner last year is very much a crossover boat, decent but not great at both rowing and sailing, and able to use both at once. Most other boats in the Raid could do one or the other.

My current thinking is more of the same, but with more horsepower in the sailing department. Below is the Barefoot 517, almost 17' by 6'6", with 230 sq. ft of sail and a hull weight of less that 400 pounds. If I get my way she will have asymmetric bilge boards and a retractable carbon bowsprit.

Tad

7307

7308

7309

[duluthboats]

Here is another version from a well known designer. It certainly wins my vote for the 10lbs in a 5lb package award; it’s all there in a neat little boat. For some areas this might be the perfect boat to join a raid.

Gary :D

[duluthboats]

Tad, I want to thank you for your blog which started me down this road. I don’t know if I’ll ever join the raid but I’m planning on it.

The Barefoot 517 is certainly in the spirit of an all out racing raider. I’m no hard core traditionalist but a carbon bowsprit?

Steve, thanks for the tip. :)

Gary :D

[SAQuestor]

A two part photo essay of two men's participation in this years Everglades Challange is up at Duckworks Magazine (http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/06/gatherings/ec/index.htm).

May not be exactly like a raid (at least as I understand them) but it is one account of a long distance multi-day endurance type small boat 'race'.

[DanishBagger]

Should this boat have a selfstanding rig? What sorts?

If not, I think the rig should have deadeyes from precourt, or the like (maybe just tie something into some eyes, but chafing is not good ...).

Sleeping: In the wayfarer, some people have made it so that the floorboards can be raised, and that way two people can sleep in it. But for balance, I think two people shoudl be able to sleep in the bottom, on floorboards to be dry.

Should it be ballasted? If so, then it shouldn't be much. Dragging it ashore should be possible.

Oars, it should be able to hold some long oars inside, imo, and not strapped to the deck.

Foredeck. Well it should have one, to keep things a little dry.

Okay, those are, of course, merely suggestions. Things I would like.

[DanishBagger]

I have found a pdf of the rules for the Finland-raid. It both defines how that specific raid is supposed to run, but also sets limits on the specifics of the boats and what classes are in the raid.

You can download it here:

http://www.raidfinland.com/ENGLISH/Rules.html

[duluthboats]

DB, thank you for pointing this out, I had looked at them but not in detail. After reading them a second time I see they are well written. They don’t really set any constraints on the boat other than size and required equipment; I would like to adopt these rules with regards to The Raid Boat. If someone is not agreeable to this we can have a poll on it. Otherwise I will consider them adopted.

It would be fantastic to someday participate in Raid Finland. :)

Gary :D

[DanishBagger]

Hehe, yes, me too. I hope that I am able to be in the blekinge-one (a swedish one) next year, and hopefully at sometime in the next couple of years in the finnish.

Oh, and the finnish one has a super-nice catboat for sale, it' 6,5mtrs, and is an american catboat. It's the "Cohiba" :-)

I am mentioning this boat, both because it is nice, but it is also a totally different type of raid boat, and if you scan down the page my link refers to, there are some very different boats, all used for the raid - it might give people some ideas:

http://www.raidfinland.com/ENGLISH/rentals.html

[DanishBagger]

Was the idea of a raid boat not interesting enough to everyone, or?

[duluthboats]

:( I had hoped the idea would take off but the interest seems to be small. I have limited knowledge of sail boats and none of high performance sail boats. I continue to play with my ideas they are better suited for a Sunday drive not a race.

Gary :D

[DanishBagger]

Well, a Raid isn't a race as such, although it does have elements of it.

What if we made some suggestions, not just one, but a few different ones, for different types (different compromises)? Perhaps that would kick off some of the "real" designers, being provoked by bad design?

[Redsky]

are the overall length min/max draft max and minmium weight standard for all raids? or are there diffrent specs for diffrent raids?

[DanishBagger]

There are different specs, depending on the raid. Also, the different raids has different conditions to sail in. Some are rather long, slow and sunny, others can have pretty high winds (the Caledonian Raid, for instance).

But for all intents and purposes, it should be small and pretty light (so as to be able to be dragged onto the shorefron
Then again, though, everything is a compromise, and I would prefer sea-keeping to dragging ashore (more weight, baasically).

Even though most are a wee bit different in the rules, most are just about the same, only in detail do they differ. But it's rather open, the way it is done. Heck, in most raids you can even have a dispensation to participate in a boat that not live strictly up to the rule(s).

Andre

[duluthboats]

Currently there are few rules regarding boats that participate in raids. Each is unique and governed by it’s organizers.

Gary

[DanishBagger]

Currently there are few rules regarding boats that participate in raids. Each is unique and governed by it’s organizers.

Gary

Hehe, yes, that is a much more concise way of saying it :P

[duluthboats]

:o
Andre, I now see that we had both posted I should have looked before I hit reply.
Gary :D

[Claus Riepe]

To introduce myself:
I have been sucked in to the european raid scene a few years ago, and have participated in several raids.

It is true what has been said above, a 'perfect' raid boat for one raid may well fail in another raid, the outer conditions stretch from windy high seas to calm, sheltered canals.
The solution we have found, and think it is the only viable solution to all the conflicting requirements, not least for the necessary RCD compliance, is water ballast.

Raid organisers are very liberal when it comes to design details, but all are very safety conscious, so there always is a requirement for a safe, insurable design and buid, so this implicitly means 'RCD' compliance. I doubt that RCD-less pure race designs will be accepted in the more demanding raids.

But pre-RCD boats, that have proven their seaworthiness over many years will always be accepted. So I think from there comes an overall 'traditional' or 'Classic' look of most raids. Incredible when you see Norvegians rushing by in their 150 year old original boats. That's the true spirit.

Sure, you could turn up with a white plastic thing with carbon sails, and win by a fair margin, but I doubt you will enjoy that very much and make very many friends in the process.

A good modern raid boat therefore should maintain a traditional look. Underneath may be hightec, but to the eye it must be charming.

Hope this helps.

Claus

[joz]

Willallison

type in google "raid boats" you will find that there are specs etc on this type of event, its mainly from England to which raids are conducted into Europe, I think off memory the last one was in Finland so a boat had to meet that requirement it changes every year. Also raids are now taken off in the US and Canada. Now it will Australia's turn or then again maybe not.

[Claus Riepe]

When you do google for 'Raid Boats', an article from the Smallboatforum by Tom Vetromile comes into view. A very nice article, and it illustrates what I mentioned above, that Raids and Raid boats do have a 'traditional' look.

However, that article that I think appeared in January 2006 is a bit outdated already, because it does not take the latest raid boat designs into account.
In 2005 the British Magazine 'Classic Boat' had organized an official Raid Boat design competition, and the winning boats were presented in the December 2006 issue. ( Reference can be found on the website of www.Swallowboats.co.uk under 'Magazine Reviews .. SeaRaider').
Interestingly, the first prize of that design competition went to Australia, to Thomas Payne, so maybe there will be a Raid in Australia too very soon.

And one other, more general point concerning 'Raids'.: The design of the boats must be excellent of course, but is not all-decisive.
What finally makes the winner, is to a very high degree the physical capability of the crew, especially because of the rowing legs frequently involved. Often rowing is not prescribed, you just have the freedom to change to rowing anytime and anywhere when that offers better speed.

We had seen an athletic crew of hardy Norvegians rowing up directly to windward with six knots, it is quite impossible to match that under sails alone, whatever the boat design may be. A good design AND some drops of the old Viking blood make a Raid Boat a successful one.

Claus

[Claus Riepe]

Swallowboats Ltd. are already doing another water-ballasted Raid boat, 20 ft. BayRaider, renderings are on their website.

One boat has been ordered from the US, Oregon, and will probably pop up in one of the upcoming US raids.

Claus

[Tad]

After the experience of the first Shipyard Raid in 2005, the 2006 fleet was smaller, lighter, and easier to row, including a number of sliding seat rigs.

I think the faster boats carried beer in bottles as ballast, but little water and certainly that disappeared during each leg.

I found the Classic Boat design contest winners odd in that all included motor wells? Perhaps suggesting the designers were after more than a Raid entry.

Tad

[Claus Riepe]

... I found the Classic Boat design contest winners odd in that all included motor wells? Perhaps suggesting the designers were after more than a Raid entry.
Tad

Maybe the market in Europe is different from the U.S.. Europe has fiercely tidal conditions in most popular sailing areas like the Solent, Scotland, Brittany, and there are also thousands of miles of fast flowing navigable rivers and canals to use or explore.

Besides, not all buyers would intend to do serious raid racing with their boat, they just want the versatility and speed potential of these boats.
But even if they are very active raiders, they would use their boats 80% for other general uses too, like single handing, fishing, pottering about.

So the key isssue is probably NOT whether to have an engine or none, but to provide for an engine AND do it in a way that the sailing and rowing capabilities are not reduced.

Our own engine is an aircooled Honda 2.3 short shaft, good enough for over 5 knots. There is just a small slit in the bottom of the boat for the propellor to fit through, and when the engine is tilted up, that slit is closed with a flush fitting fairing flap. No drag.

We can keep the engine in during races. At a weight of 12 kgs, (same weight as the anchoring gear) that extra weight is not significant, our full complement crew alone weighs around 400 kgs.

And it often comes in handy: In this years Sail Caledonia raid in Scotland, we finally came into a situation where we had to lock out through a sea-lock into a pretty wild open sea, and the moment the lock gates swung open, a full F7 was hammering its seas head-on into the lock chamber and all boats started to go Polka. There would have been no way for any of us to get out from there under oars alone.

C.

[Tad]

Thanks for your comments Claus,

Different Raids, different focus. To me, and as I state on the Shipyard Raid site, the Raid's purpose is to promote cruising in open boats under oar and sail. The unwritten text is that this cruising is done without engines. Of the 10 boats in the 2006 Shipyard Raid none carried engines, and only one even has the ability to do so. All the other boats are designed and built to cruise (or race) under sail and oar alone.

Thus to me an ideal Raid boat does not include an engine because there is no need of one. She will be able to make good progress (really good) under oars alone. This means the rig is light and comes down or you can row and sail at the same time. These are not heavy sailing cruisers that can just barely be rowed.

Different conditions? We have a 15' tidal range and the first hour of the Shipyard Raid sees the passage of a narrows which can run at 7+ knots. Currents of 3-4 knots are not unusual in the various passages and channels we traverse during the Raid.

Kayaks cruise extensively without engines. The boats that are being developed to compete in our Raid are one step up in endurance and add the ability to sail and sleep aboard. I love the look on the predominate powerboater's faces when a group of small boats arrive silently, unpack, camp, repack, and leave again in total silence. And appear to be having great fun in the process.

I guess that is the idea, you can have fun in small boats without infernal combustion!

Tad

[Claus Riepe]

Tad:
I am a bit puzzled.

So you do not want boats with engines in your Shipyard Raid, fine.

But do you really think modern Raid boat designs should not provide for any engine? You think boats without an engine well have wider appeal and would sell better than boats with a well?

To me, an ideal raid boat not only sails and rows well, but also appeals to many and sells well.

C.

[rayk]

Love the philosophy of raid boats being engineless. People are drawn to them for that very reason.

They have enough appeal without an engine.

Ive rowed and paddled and sailed my boats and it was more satisfying to curse god than thank Yamaha.

[Tad]

Tad:

So you do not want boats with engines in your Shipyard Raid, fine.

It's not a question of not wanting them, the engines were eliminated as extraneous by the racers, they have no place in the Raid. Just as in round-the-buoys sailboat racing, you withdraw or are disqualified if you use your engine to get round the course. And our rules don't require the presence of an engine, thus it would be excess weight so they’ve gone extinct.

But do you really think modern Raid boat designs should not provide for any engine? You think boats without an engine well have wider appeal and would sell better than boats with a well?

I think modern, engineless, oar and sail cruisers are a new development and natural offshoot of the Raid movement. But they only apply to one type of Raid, others want something different. I do also believe that engineless cruisers will indeed appeal to some who appreciate what they offer. Using less in the pursuit of pleasure is gaining acceptance, witness the kayak cruising movement.

To me, an ideal raid boat not only sails and rows well, but also appeals to many and sells well.

To me the Raid is an example of what is possible, that you can take a 16' open boat with nothing but oars and sails for power on a 100 mile open water cruise and live to tell the tale. As a small boat designer I am interested in new possibilities rather than recreating endlessly John Watkinson's work of 40+ years ago.

C.

Tad....

[Claus Riepe]

Tad:
We seem to speak into different directions and I wonder why that must be so.

You yourself put an outboarder well into your own design raid boat 'Ratty', and still you call it 'odd' that other designers provide for an outboard in their designs.?

And I think you go wrong when you disregard the good that John Watkinson had in all his Drascombe designs, the total versatility, the seakindliness, the all-weather sail plan, the thousandfold proven reliability.
For an ideal Raid Boat the task is to further improve on that.

Therefore some modern raid boat designs still look like Drascombes from afar, but they sail and row very differently.

>>our rules don't require the presence of an engine, thus it would be excess weight so they’ve gone extinct. <<

: No raid rules I know ever require the presence of an engine, but sometimes the real world conditions do, as I had experienced and described above. In such conditions you either have an engine aboard, or you must ask others who have for a tow, suits yourself which you prefer.

And again, my point was that modern raid boats should in principle be able to carry an engine along, but without compromising their sailing and rowing performance. That is the real task for the designer.

One is always free to leave the engine itself at home.

C.

[Tad]

Sorry Claus, I don't mean to seem obtuse, just not explaining myself very well I guess.

On the origins of my boat Ratty.
Ratty was originally designed to illustrate an article on cruising sailboats in WoodenBoat Magazine. The drawings were done in the late 90's but the article wasn’t published until the end of 2003. When she was drawn I was only vaguely aware (if at all) of the existence of a thing called a Raid. She was intended as a family cruiser very much in the tradition (and in appreciation of) of Watkinson's Drascombe cruisers. When my life allowed the construction of a small boat for family cruising, the Ratty plans were already done, and so she was built. After that I became involved with the Shipyard School and several years later began looking for a way to publicize the School's activities. In mid 2003 we conceived the idea of a Raid, and as my own boat fit the criteria, she was the first entry. But it was all happy coincidence, as was her win in 2005 due to excellent crewing.

For the 2006 Shipyard Raid Ratty was totally outclassed, but if it had blown 20+ knots all week, things might have been very different. Alas the wind hardly made any appearance at all, and thus the sliding seat rowboats controlled the lead.

After the 2005 Shipyard Raid I was asked to design a new boat to win in 2006, which became the Barefoot 517 posted above. Unfortunately the boat was not built before the 2006 Raid, and though she is currently under construction (to compete in 2007) I fear her design is already outdated.

Designs I admire include Gilles Montaubin's Wabi, and the very interesting Plume class designed by Gildas Plessis and Pierre-Marie Bourguinat. The Plume doesn’t seem to allow for either rowing or engine?

Perhaps our different views come down to a definition of ideal? My ideal Raid boat will make no concessions to any role other than winning a Raid, whereas your ideal would lead a full life as cruiser, after the Raid?

All the best, Tad

[Claus Riepe]

Tad,
thank you for your clarifications.

... Designs I admire include Gilles Montaubin's Wabi, and the very interesting Plume class designed by Gildas Plessis and Pierre-Marie Bourguinat. The Plume doesn’t seem to allow for either rowing or engine?
...
No. And it's also not 'traditional' in any way, so it would not qualify for your Shipyard Raid. If that boat is what you consider to be an 'ideal Raid Boat', we disagree very much.

... Perhaps our different views come down to a definition of ideal? My ideal Raid boat will make no concessions to any role other than winning a Raid, whereas your ideal would lead a full life as cruiser, after the Raid?

Yes, my ideal raid boat must be able to win a Raid, AND serve the rest of the time as stable allround fishing boat, family boat, and coastal passagemaker, both with crew and single handed. A boat just for winning a raid would be too easy to design, and besides, few fellow raiders would like it.

Claus

[ancient kayaker]

I am starting to wonder just what is acceptable to a raid committee. The key seems to be "traditional" but in a race specially designed boats will inevitably appear even though some will disapprove.

Whose tradition, by the way? Would you allow paddles instead of oars?

Kayaks and Baidarkas have been around for long enough to be considered traditional and a long double will beat the pants off any oar-driven boat short of a racing skiff, and they can handle a decent sea.

Sailing? I sail my kayak using a home-built retractable mast and Bruce Foil. It is speedy in any direction except into the wind, it can be tacked but it is faster to paddle.

Safe? I can erect my rig and pack it away again in one minute in the event of trouble, or even toss the mast and sail over the side for later retrieval. It's strictly lakes and rivers for me due to chicken DNA but if the rules will bend far enough to admit sliding seats and composites this would be my ideal raid boat.

[Claus Riepe]

I am starting to wonder just what is acceptable to a raid committee.

: Ultimately that is up to the respective individual committee decision, which will probably be guided mainly by practilities, how likely they consider your boat -or you both- may cause trouble in the usual sea and wind conditions during the raid. They certainly do not want to risk loosing a boat.

For example I would think that in the Dorestad Raid in the Netherlands a boat like yours will be perfectly fitting and welcome, in the Sail Caledonia it will probably be declined. These two raids probably are the xtremes on either side of the raid character span between sheltered and demanding.

BTW, if you lookup the participants ('Deelnemers') of Dorestad Raid 2005 (www.natuurlijkvaren.nl) you will see two boats similar to your own, 'De Harp' and 'Plezier'.
On the other side, at the Sail Caledonia website (www.sailcaledonia.org) website there is a link to a huge photo gallery of 2006 participants and situations. None of the boats depicted there are like yours.

Just contact the respective organisers, and ask them.

Claus

[Claus Riepe]

Tad:
I just read that you will have one of the new BayRaiders in the Shipyard Raid fleet this year.
That is one of newly custom designed raid boats I mentioned that CAN take a small engine along without compromising their rowing or sailing capability in any noticeable way. They have a flap underneath that flushly closes the outboard well when the engine is tilted up into the hull.
Again, I was not advocating the USE of an engine, but I am convinced many buyers prefer boats that CAN accommodate one.

C.

[sailing canoe]

Just a bump to see if there is more life in this one. My preference is just above. Funny how these threds just fade away

[DanishBagger]

Well, these threads fade away when all is said and done, methinks. Or when all the nerds have said their peace (yes, I have posted in this thread too).
Honestly, though, it seems that this sort of boat doesn't have one answer, but numerous, depending on taste and preferences, so that might be one of the reasons this one isn't drawing too much attention.

[duluthboats]

I still hope to participate in the Shipyard School Raid someday. I plan to learn to sail this summer. :eek: The boat I build for the raid will be inspired by Conjure, the ’07 winner.

http://www.shipyardraid.ca/images/juandefuca-conjure-06-rusty-S.jpg

Gary :D

[DanishBagger]

Nice lines on her, Gary!

[sailing canoe]

Yes I have to admit to liking that boat. Its hard to imagine a lighter Boat. I wonder if its possible to contact the owner builder to get some build info. Maybe Tad Roberts could forward a message. As I recollect he was virtually competative with a dedicated double, but I had'nt realized that he had won this year. If you want I can look up a web site by a couple of engineers on their problem solving while building a Explorer canoe. Sliding seat is definatly the way to go for that event. I sort of envy you going out to learn to sail. I grew up on the water, but you have a great adventure ahead of you. Nick the..

[duluthboats]

http://www.shipyardraid.ca/images/07-raid-prevost-island-S.jpg

Another shot. I'm trying to find my pics from the Wooden Boat Show at PT. I must have some more detail shots.

SC I also grew up on the water using push poles, oars, and paddles ;-)

Gary

[Tad]

Hi Gary, I'm sorry I missed meeting you in PT.

I would be happy to forward questions on Conjure to Dan.

I think the boat's lines came from an Adirondack Guide boat, but Dan stretched it out to around 19'6". The beam is reported at 3'8", weight was reported as 160 pounds in '06. For 07 he lightened her a bunch by removing the ply deck and supposedly self-draining cockpit liner which did not work. So final bare boat may be less than 100 pounds. Sail area is 80 sq. ft. Sailing is the boat's real weak point, not enough sail area nor enough stability to do well.

In 07 I finally figured out I could equalize the advantage of the sliding seats with more sailing only legs. Of course this new ruling will spur a new arms race. Also in 08 the Shipyard Raid will have a completely new course and date, thus very different conditions.

There is a fairly good article on building and using this type of boat in WoodenBoat # 191. Author is Brian Schulz of Cape Falcon Kayak.

Tad

[duluthboats]

Thanks Tad,
I was guessing the lines came from The St Lawrence Skiff, which is a longer double ended Guide boat, either way they both are way too tender for me to learn to sail in. I do like the idea of SOF for light weight and quick build.
Gary

[Tad]

You may be correct on Conjure's roots Gary, I seem to confuse the details these days. Too many boats.....

[sailing canoe]

Well tender it sure would be, but for me one of the great things about water sports is that its one of the only sports where the crash and burn is just plain fun ! Can you think of another one? Mind you I'm not talking of sailing at high latitudes with the main sail tied off at the head of the mast - full spinnaker and wiping out repeatedly, in the dark with only the ice burgs for company. I'm sure its a rush but I'll pass. May be if I were good enough to be invited it would not seem so outrageous but I will never Know. Certainly if the waters cold wear a wet suit. For me ; a self draining cockpit is essential - so the crash and burn have an easy recovery.Is there a flotation component to the raid rules? The picture of Conjure looks like an empty boat. Where is all the gear? I wonder what the self draining cockpit liner looked like and how it was suposed ( conceptionally) to work? Great sheer though - almost too much in this angle. Nick

[Raggi_Thor]

....one of the great things about water sports is that its one of the only sports where the crash and burn is just plain fun ! Can you think of another one? ....

Skiing? :)

[sailing canoe]

would that be frozen or liquid water? assuming frozen, I agree its great but the "launch fee " is $60-$90 plus a 3 hour drive with a crowd of polluting lemming like skiers. Sort of dulls my enthusiasm. Plus people break bones. I never heard of anyone breaking anything capsizing a boat! I'm sure with talent it could be done ,BUT.. That asside, if snow was close I would be a ski bum for sure.

[sailing canoe]

http://home.fuse.net/thewizard/http://home.fuse.net/thewizard/ I don't think I did that right! anyway a very detailed huge blog on their biuld of a snowshoe Platt Monsford boat. It is a very slow down load on dial up so I havent looked at as much of it as I would like to.

[Tad]

This is another picture of Conjure with her original cockpit. The self-bailing did not work because the cockpit was too deep when the boat was fully loaded. The design was very much trial and error. Dan also took far more gear the first year, 06.

18807

[sailing canoe]

That is indeed a problem. I assume it was supposed to drain through the center board slot or is there a plank keel? I can not imagine draining through the fabric. Less Gear? I thought that there was an extensive list of required gear. But I note, no spare oar in the excellent picture you attached - thank you for that. I should imagine that taking all that interior out, besides being discouraging, took some stiffness out of the boat too. was this a problem sailing?
Above I asked I there is a flotation requirement for raid boats? Tad are you available for Q&A on raid boats here?

Many thanks Nick

[ancient kayaker]

I wonder if a Bruce foil would allow more sail to be carried. A couple of years back I tried one on a really small kayak (less than 10 ft) which was able to handle 15 sq ft on a 7 ft mast without problems, I imagine it could be scaled up. My little boat went like a rocket on a reach or a run, white water up to my elbows, I'd guess upwards of 4 knots. A longer hull would exceed hull speed no problem.

Upwind is another matter, it did not have enough speed or agility to tack reliably, but in any case it will always faster to row/paddle upwind in a canoe or kayak.

[Tad]

Nick,

I hate to get too deep into this as I'm relying on a fairly hazy memory. I'll send Dan a note of this interest.

I believe Dan had a drain aft that had to be blocked off. Some of the boats carry a two-piece spare oar, some put them aboard one of the mother ships. I don't recall Dan's system that year. In practice this works well as in recent years the boats are quite close together or in small groups with a mother for each group.

I really don't have any idea about the overall stiffness change; the boat seems very stiff when you pick it up. The tiny unstayed rig is very low stress.

There are no "industry" or "movement" wide rules for Raid Boats, that may come in future. I do like to see some form of positive floatation in the boats, but few (if any) carry ballast in our Raid and thus will float quite high anyways. Permanent positive floatation in traditional boats (air or foam tanks) is not really a good idea, even if it was possible. I accept drybags lashed into the boat as floatation. It's also my decision as to who races what, thus I can require whatever I like if there's reason for concern. Mostly I watch carefully and stick close to the nubes.

Tad

[sailing canoe]

I think the whole raid concept it great - I love the water but lying around on beaches doesn't really do it for me.
-I thought that one of the Raid boat concepts was that the boats be self sufficent; ie carry every thing required!
-It would seem as though a capsize and recovery would be a good Raid requirement, at least in these boat sizes. This would have to be with the realization that a calm bay bears no relation to central channel conditions.
- Siding seats. If you are going to require a sailing leg, it seams as if the only one that would penalize the skinny narrow boat crowed would be a windy day; hard to arrange where you are. On the other hand on a no wind day nobody is going anywhere. When we chartered a boat in the San Jauns, many years ago, fiends commented it was like motor homing with their parents - we only had one sailing day in the week. And the time we spent there this summer I dont remember any wind except when we were on the west coast of vancouver island.
-Do you limit the number of entries? The numbers at this point are not enough to have classes; ie. sliding seats etc
Thanks Nick

[Tad]

Nick,

The boats in Raid Finland and in the Swedish Raid do not carry any of their camping gear, etc. They have baggage boats which follow along. I've always pushed people to carry all their own gear, which they have. But I also try to be accommodating and helpful, as I said in practice a spare oar close by works well. Last year, 07, we had one boat (one crewman!) which broke many oars, some of which were repaired along the way. The second place boat last year also broke their mast the night before the final day's crossing of Jan De Fuca. They spent the night repairing it aboard one of the motherships and went on to win the next day. I vidio of this I hope to get on youtube sometime.

Last year I had one entry who built a new Ness yawl to enter in the 07 Raid. After finishing the boat he went for a trial sail and capsized. The next day he withdrew his entry, which was best for all concerned. In 05 we had some fairly rough weather and one boat (15' dory) had problems but did not capsize. Generally we have mostly very experienced people with perhaps one or two inexperienced boats competing. Thus I know where I need to be in the rough stuff. No capsizes so far......let’s keep it that way!

As you say a calm water on-purpose capsize with the boat empty of gear would bear no resemblance to the real thing in exposed open water. I do not expect anyone to right themselves and keep sailing after a capsize in these waters. Its not Florida, the water is very cold, as is the wind even in summer. I know that I have to get alongside a capsized boat in minutes and I'll have to pull people out of the water, that's implicit. Testing stability is all that could be accomplished in a calm water capsize. And I agree it would be interesting, but of little practical value during the raid.

The sliding seats are pretty much in a class of their own in normal rowing/sailing legs, they pull ahead at the beginning and then just sit there. In a sailing only leg they have to sail and oars cannot be used. Thus the boats cannot go too far in one direction. Conjure is an example, in the sailing only legs in 07 she was totally outclassed. My handicapping system did not work perfectly because the wind did not cooperate.

Yes, we usually have had very light to no wind, which has been frustrating for many. For 08 we are changing both route and date in hopes of more sailing, among other things.

Splitting the boats into separate classes doubles my workload, this is to be avoided. The entry numbers seem to self limit at about 10 boats per year. This seems a good size group, if it gets too big people split off into factions. I don't limit entries but I will if I get more than 12-15 entries, that's too many to worry about.

Tad

[sailing canoe]

Ok lets give this another bump -- kick . I think that I am on record some where above as saying that a Raid is the most fun you can have with your clothes on, yes I'm champing at the bit to go do them ALL. But no boat yet. I have started lofting but I will be lucky If I make next year. But - Tad , I'm getting worried - I am seeing no action on the Ship Yard Raid site. I hope I this does not signal an early end to west coast raiding. I'm used to being alittle odd but the fact that you are only getting about 10 entries year is making me feel down right perverted. I'd come paddle a log if it would help keep it going but I'm going to be in England showing my daughter all the Swallows and Amazon's sights I grew up with. Wild Cat island , Cormerant island, Rio etc.

Now someone did give a very ugly Flying Dutchman hull last week - I wonder how it would row - Ketch rig, bow sprit. Giant asimetrical cruising shoot. humm

Nick

[Tad]

Hello Nick,

No worries mate....the Shipyard Raid goes on. We start June 28th 2008, on a new course north from Silva Bay finishing in 8 days (July 5th) in Heriot Bay on Quadra Island. This Raid will visit numerous Islands, Desolation Sound, and touch the BC mainland several times. There are some challenging open water crossings and some long days ahead. But it's going to be a really fine race in spectacular surroundings, with a group of the greatest people.

The fine thing about the Raid for me is that people keep coming back, they build new boats and find new crew and come back to place just a little better. This year we will have 9 boats starting including 2 Sea Scout groups.

The FD hull might be a grand Raider if you could keep her light. Carbon rig I think.....:D

[sailing canoe]

Well I'll sleep well tonight! I 'll keep checking the Shipyard raid site. I knew about the new course in general; are going to publish details. Your headed for the big time of tidal currents- scary/ fun ? I would recomend Seakayakers "Deep Trouble' to the raiders. Many graphic examples of screwups in north-western waters. Our boats might be bigger but same water, currents and wind. I wrote a very long winded reply to an earlier post of yours -Tod, Fortunatly, for you all, I lost when I went to double cheak on attributing some thing to you. So I'll state it for my self - Raiding is to promote travel in small boats. As such I think that all raid boats should have self rescue capabilities. The old timers may have got away with alsorts of nasty weather but they had probly aquired more sea time by the time they were twenty than we will aquire in a life time; they ,generally , did not go to sea for fun; and , some of them drowned. Thus I think a Lemans style start off the beach with full camping gear, out to some point, capsize and recovery, land and pitch camp, boil 2 cups of water. Sort of like the time trial major bike races start with. Besides providing a great spectical for any shore side contingent it would hopefully be a shot of realism and result in increased caution by the raiders as a group. I can only imagine that at the very least gear would be better stowed / lashed afterwards. Make for some good TV too.
As for carbon fiber on the FD - you were thinking of wind surfer mast too or just the tiller extention??
Nick
Still only 10 people - that pretty weird - Maybe Powels Books is on to something - erotic literature is next to nautical literature

[Tad]

Nick,

Actually we're not going into any rapids or narrows on the new course. The previous year's route to Port Townsend took us through Gabriola Pass (7+ knots) on the first leg, now we avoid that hold up.

The "old timers" usually got into trouble because they were traveling alone. I grew up doing this, as a teenager I would routinely travel BC waters in a 12' open skiff. Yes, I had a lifejacket that I wore, I had an outboard and oars, and a bailing can, and a rock for an anchor. I did not have positive flotation (though the boat was of heavy wood construction), I did not have a radio, or flares, or GPS, or even a compass, the beach is right there for gods' sake! I knew I was on my own, or if I was lucky a fisherman might come along and help if he saw me. I did not expect the Coast Guard to rescue me, they were not around. Almost no one was around and that's why I was out there.

I was taking personal responsibility for my actions, a calculated risk just like stepping out onto a crosswalk. I expect those skippers entered in our Raid to do the same thing, but I will not lay down a bunch of arbitrary rules concerning self-rescuing. If a skipper is concerned about such issues, and if he is prudent, he will have gone through the scenario you suggest. But that is his concern.

One of the things I establish with all participants in our Raid is that they are responsible, at all times, for their own boat and actions. The only hard and fast rule is , "Don't hit anything".

I do keep our group as safe as possible by keeping all boats in sight (by at least one mothership) at all times. But boats are also free to choose a course that suits them and the tide/weather at the time. I often feel I'm mothering to closely, then I back off.

As you note, my problem is finding willing folks with any boat capable and qualified to undertake this adventure. More rules and requirements will cut into that pool considerably.

[Tad]

Shipyard Raid schedule starting in Silva Bay BC June 28th 2008, finish July 5th 2008.

Saturday 28th Lv. Silva Bay Arrv. Descanso Bay 9nm
Sunday 29th Lv. Descanso Bay Arrv. Jedediah Is 22 nm
Monday 30th Lv. Jedediah Is Arrv. Cape Cockburn (Nelson Is.) 13 nm
Tuesday 1st Lv. Cape Cockburn (Nelson Is.) Arrv. Westview/Powell River 17nm
Wednesday 2nd Lv. Westview Arrv. Copeland Is. (Lund) 14nm
Thursday 3rd Lv. Copeland Is. Arrv. Tenedos Bay (Desolation Sound) 11nm
Friday 4th Lv. Tenedos Bay Arrv. Mansons Landing (Cortes Is) 19nm
Saturday 5th Lv. Mansons Landing Finish at Heriot Bay (Quadra Is.) 9nm

[Eralnd44]

I believe there was a RAID type event that just concluded, called the Texas 200, or something like that. The website says five consecutive 40 mile days in warm, protected waters with steady 15-20 knot winds and 85 degree F air temperatures.

That could be a lot of fun. Does anybody know anything else about it?

Eral

[DanishBagger]

Well, I don't personally know anything about it, but here's a link:

http://www.texas200.com/